It's been a hard week....

Thanks for all the advice. Had a chat with brother the weekend - he is a huge part of the problem to be honest.

He lives a mile away. No kids (that he lives with). A partner that doesn't work. He works as a welder which Dad recognises as proper work. (Us office workers are just pen pushers).

Of course, brothers partner visits him in the week, does his shopping, panders to him. Plenty of spare time on her hands. I think a lot of it with her is she can see some money coming her way.

(You may have seen the story on her where she had a bright idea to claim something we have in the UK called "Carers Allowance". Until she found out you had to 35 hours per week of caring and it was £85 a week. She was thinking of 2 shopping trips per week , £200-£300 kerching. She dropped that one hit a hot turd when she found out)

Same with brother at the weekend. Hes got time.

BUT when it suits him (and her) he disappears. Tells Dad hes working oh so hard, 12 hours shifts (then I see photos on facebook of him in the pub). If I told him I'd worked for 3 weeks with no sleep he'd say something like "yes but you're only pushing papers around or tapping the keyboard".

Brothers attitude is "hes our Dad and we've got to help him whenever he wants". And "yes he can be a bit funny but we've got to do what he wants".

Because its easy for him. As I posted on here a few weeks ago he text me one saturday "can you take your turn and visit day today because I'm doing something". With everything going on I just couldnt do it, wife was working, I was taking son somewhere, daughter to party etc so I said sorry no I can't.

He mentioned this weekend that I don't help Dad and put everyone before him. Jeez.

I wonder what that means to him, " I won't have a stranger deliver food to me"? He must attach some shame to that.

That might be worth exploring at a calm moment.

Is his reluctance to stock up due to the fact that he'd then only have £10 in the bank after he did? What if you fronted him the money and he paid you back over 2 weeks or something?

Barb - they do. Minimum order is £40 though. He spends a paltry £15 a go. (Buy too much and he can't use the no food excuse 5 days later!).

I've tried - hes said hes not allowing a stranger to deliver food to him - he doesnt want to blow all that money in one go (Hes got about £50K in the bank). Hes said if I ever did he would leave it on the doorstep. He would too.

ACaringDaughter - another one.

Where exactly did anyone say about depriving him of food exactly? Hes got food, hes got someone else to get it for him, someone who can get it delivered for him. He chooses to use the food thing to play games.

Unfortunate fact of life that people with elderly parents occasionally have other responsibilities too like kids. Are you suggesting that someone should ignore these and focus completely on your elderly parents?

Not sure if you've been following but should I ignore my 15 year son with Aspergers from now on (he needs time believe me!), my neuro-typical 5 year old takes up a lot of time too (and despite what my dad would like I cant leave her home alone when my wifes working and I visit Dad). Oh and did I mention my wife whos got Fibromyalgia, struggles some days, walks with a crutch some days.

Now, when I've been lied to about having seen no-one, got no food in the house just to try and make me drop everything to visit. (When I visit when I can anyway just not enough for his liking). And don't even get me started on the fake illnesses and fake injuries to get the same affect.

Now "ACaringDaughter" please reply. Do you think I'm still being unfair to him and neglecting him?

Paul does that store near you deliver? If not, next time you are headed to your dad's, buy a month's worth of those meals. Really stock his freezer. Would that help?

I'm glad you maintained your boundary with him. No need to get angry. No is a complete sentence.

Thanks for the usual BS response you get on here sonny7. That old chestnut. It does indeed come around mate.

There's only so much of my time to share with everyone. One person does not get all of it to the detriment of the rest. Think before you post crap like this.

It all went off a bit at the weekend. I didn't have a car sunday and wife had to work. Inconvenient for everyone.

I'd already warned Dad that was the case so called him early Saturday. I know brother was visiting so food wasn't an issue because he could get him sorted.

He wasn't happy. I said look brother can get you food, but he was insistent he needed these particular frozen meals that you can get in the supermarket near where I live (there is not one where he lives - convenient eh?) So again I offered home delivery - nope.

His answer (since supermarkets close at 4pm on a Sunday here in the UK). Since I didn't have a car I could walk (its about 20 mins walk) to the supermarket, get his food, carry it home, then when my wife came home from work at 5pm, I could drive over to him (30 mins) with the food. When I said no I'm not dragging my 5 year old and anyway it might rain - his answer "you've got coats haven't you?".

That was it. I told him a few home truths and hes not talking to me. I'll get a half hearted apology in a day or two I expect then he'll back to normal.....

polar bear’s reply reminded me of a movie I use to recommend all the time for people in your situation.

Its called Hanging Up. Meg Ryan, Lisa Kudrow, Diane Keaton and the fabulous Walter Matthau as the unreasonable, demanding father. It’s a good movie that really hits home to the points you’ve mentioned.

If you find yourself thinking “Yeah, right! Like I have time for a freakin’ movie”. Think of it as therapy. I do believe it can help if you’re open to taking advice from a movie.

Dad: " You're letting me down."
Paul: "No, I am not. Your expectations are too high."

Dad: "You need to arrange something so I can get some food to eat."
Paul: "I arrange for home delivery of groceries."

Dad: "But I don't want to spend the money. I want you to deliver to me."
Paul: "Sorry dad. I don't have the time."

Dad: "But, you need to ___________"
Paul: "Sorry dad. I don't have the time. I got to go. Love you. Bye."

Paul, learn to use the End button on your phone. Learn to let calls go to voice mail. Those two things will help you keep your sanity. I promise you Paul, after half a dozen times of training dad by hanging up when he starts with the guilt tripping, he'll learn that he can no longer manipulate you. Good luck.

Thanks Cali!

Ah....but there you are dragging down Paul. Nothing you said is supportive or uplifting, ACaringDaughger. You also made negative comments about those you disagree with. Hypocrite much?

Paul’s dad is about as self centered as one can get. He is driving Paul nuts with his demands. His brother is practically useless but the dad favors him. Paul has a right to be annoyed. No one is high fiving. As caregivers ourselves we have tried to explain to Paul that are limits, boundaries must be set and so forth. Oh let’s not forget. Paul’s dad seems to embellish his health condition and most other things too. Paul has a lot to deal with concerning his dad.

This website is called “aging care.” Some of these posts suggest neglect and abandonment. People “High-fiving” another for lying. This angry crowd mentality is disturbing.

What happened to “treat others as you would want to be treated?”

Paul, did your dad deprive you of food when you were a child? Did he give you attention when you needed some?

Although we can ALL relate to too much on our plate, too much stress in the world, sick parents, sick kids, sickness ourselves... everywhere, too much multitasking, too many demands, too much pain...

The blog is here to support each other, so why tear down each other... and our families, too, in the process?

Reading a post you made in someone else's thread, you mentioned him waiting 5 hours for you to retrieve him from the hospital to take him home (no medical issue at the time.)

Rather than saying it will take X time to get to you, tell him you have no car. It's in the shop. He will have to make another choice (taxi, van, call your brother.)

Although he may not have dementia, little white lies can be your friend when someone is as demanding as he is. Lying to someone isn't easy, but neither is dealing with someone so demanding and unable to compromise. REAL lies are told to cover up something bad you have done OR to hurt someone. Little white lies are just fudging the truth, helps to avoid confrontation and maybe get out of some task that *really* is unnecessary. If he were pleasant to be around, I am sure you would take more time to visit and help out, but who wants to hang around with someone who is more down than Eeyore! Or a grandparent who has no use for a lovely granddaughter! Fudge the truth to him and give that time to her, who might be much more appreciative!

Do not offer or tell him ANY of your personal plans or habits.
Do NOT accept guilt.
Do NOT choose from HIS demands.
You provide the choices and he lives with his choice or finds some other sap.

Car is broken. Am not home/available. Only free day is day X AND my daughter will be with me! Etc.

sonny7 - there are ways to help people and there are people who just keep demanding whatever. It isn't like OP doesn't try to help, it is more like nothing he does will satisfy. So, boundaries have to come in. You set the limits and stand your ground. Obviously there can be REAL emergencies, but so far it doesn't appear that there have been any real ones.

HELP when help is needed, not when someone demands it or lays guilt on you.

sonny7,

Paul does not need a guilt trip! He is struggling with a very difficult situation. He is going to figure it out in due time. He is seeking support, encouragement and practical solutions on this forum.

Please don’t make this any harder than it already is for him. Thanks.

"I've got no food in the house." I'm sure there is some food in the house. Tell him to call your brother or accept delivery. Those are the two choices. Whatever he says after that, repeat the two choices. After that, end the conversation. He's relentless. You be MORE relentless. When he says " I've been ill", you say I understand you feel ill. Then pick one of the following: perhaps you should take the meds the doctor prescribed, perhaps you should see tne doctor. I strongly suggest you write down the things he says and then write down the response you plan to give. If you plan your response ahead of time, it is easier to stick with. When you are in the moment it is so hard. I stand at the phone with my script, pick out the response and read it to them. I learned this from a psychologist I consulted for boundary problems. I give it to all of you boundary challenged people for free.

Paul: The guilt card has been removed from the deck. Good Heavens; you'll go mad with these kind of demands. Praying for YOU. Good luck.

Hahaha, disgustedtoo!
"Why are you wasting money on that?" Not a waste to me (because I knew you would have an opinion)

"Why are you going there on holidays again?" Because we enjoy the holidays there

"Why did you have another child? They cost money and you're both too old" It keeps me young...
It was obviously meant to be and we are so happy we did...
So our oldest wont be the only one around to care for us when we get to be needy like you.

Ok that last one is a bit too snarky but I just couldn't help it Paulfoel123 deserves a giggle.

The best response to all of them is probably just a smile anyway.

Disgustedtoo,

Ooooh, I like it! Well said! Great suggestions! Wonderful reply!!!

Hi you have not tried hard enough with boundries. If you had, the manipulation would stop. He has all day every day to come up with ideas and things to say to GUILT you into doing what he wants. Your like a marionette puppet on a string and he makes you jump around. So far it is continuing to work.

I lived with a narc mother and sister. When the manipulation is too much you have to go full on no contact. Blackout of information.
That means your private life is off limits. No more saying where you are going, what you are doing, what is or isnt happening to your car, your house, your life. Period. Blackout.
You wont talk about it. Dont tell him you wont talk about it. Change subject or say nothing. If you want to get away on the weekend or sit at home in the dark it is no one's business.
When questions arise you do not answer, you talk about the news or weather. Cant think of an answer. Stop talking say nothing until you change subject. He cant manipulate if he doesnt know what is going on.

If he runs out of food he is to call brother. That will be up to them to fix it not you. You no longer get involved in that. You are officially off duty.
The manipulation can only happen when you allow it. It is a big game to your dad. He has nothing else going on. I have found most who manipulate didnt learn the skill overnight. It has always been there ongoing in the background. You just woke up to realizing it was happening. Or it means it has gotten much worse.

When he says hes ill. DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE IT. Change subject, talk about anything else. Talk about the latest news story. You need to stop informing him and brother of your every whereabout, problem and especially weekend plans! That is now OFF LIMITS. They cant spend time thinking about all the amazing fun your having if they dont know you went away, or what you are doing. They lost the privilege of knowing bc they use it against you. Total blackout on your life. No acceptions.
Ex. How is the car, is it working, will you have it this weekend? You: dont know. Did you see the news story about so in so? Wow thats something huh. No info given. Cant use info against you if you refuse to give it.
Tell brother, (not dad) that you are done with phone calls on weekend. He can handle it. Only view emergencies via text so you can decide if it is an emergency. If everything starts being an emergency then shut that down too no contact.
Stop giving dad the info to blackmail you. He just lost his privilege of information.
Now that you did this it might get a little worse b4 it gets better. He will want to get the upper hand again. Think of it as a chess game of manipulation. You need to out manuver him. Without information he will be struggling to get it back. Doesnt matter if he stopped taking meds, threw up, fell out of bed rolled down the hall and then all the way down each step and hit his head because you werent there. Your allowed to have time off and a life. You dont need his permission. You just say thats a shame, and change the subject immediatly. No more apologizing and wanting to know every detail. No details and no discussion.

Remember no more personal info!!! He lost that right to know. Stay strong.

love is forgiving. when you grow older you may realize that you may need help from your family. and i believe in karma , what goes around ,comes around.

I understand completely. My dads health went downhill in January and my mum just isn't coping looking after him. She refuses all outside help - she doesn't like strangers in the house and just wants me. We had a weekend away booked 3 weeks ago and she told her GP she had chest pains so he admitted her to hospital and our holiday got cancelled because my dad can't cope alone. She didn't have chest pains and was discharged quick smart.
Im doing all I can but work full time and have my own family.
Things came to a head and I stepped back for a week (my husband actually unplugged our house phone) and she suddenly had neighbours running errands and an on line food shop organised.
Dont be afraid to step back a bit. As long as their safe and you're doing your best that's all you can do.
Dont get me wrong, my mum still calls on a regular basis with "emergencies" so I have to rush round but I'm more rational about it which means I can sleep at night.

paulfoel123;
BarbBrooklyn says:
 "The solution is to not play the game. Take your marbles home. Don't explain. Offer two choices. If he won't make a choice, tell him goodbye."

There are many ways to not "play the game." In a post you used the "bad signal" excuse - where I live it is reality, but, USE it to your advantage. If you happen to answer his call, if he starts whining or guilt trip, you can garble your own response, say hello, hello, can't hear you dad.. and hang up! Later, oops, lost signal, couldn't ring back! Don't answer at all - let voicemail take the call. Or sorry emergency call came in, gotta take it and hang up! YOU play the game by YOUR rules. You have to learn to NOT let his guilt trips get to you - he IS manipulating you. Would you let someone else do this to you? Probably not, or at least not for long. This is no different other than he is related to you. No excuse for that, so don't accept it!

You set the ground rules, such as grocery day is X day. No ifs ands or buts...You give him choices - in this case of food, either you wait for the next grocery day or we order. When you do take him, buy more than he plans for so he HAS no "run out" excuse (aka "He deliberately gets me to only get about £20 worth of food at a time. - THIS is his manipulation - DON'T fall for it!) If he insists he needs something, tell him that you're going to order it to be delivered and say if YOU leave it outside and it goes bad, so be it. You'll have to do without until the next X day.

If/when you do visit at other times (aka "Thing is of course I'll visit him anyway."), take your 5 year old with you. In previous post(s) you have mentioned he doesn't like her being there... well, there's your excuse to find the exit and LEAVE! If he refuses to enjoy a visit with you both or go on outing with you when she is also with you, so be it. You made your choice dad. No, my daughter is important to me and you choose not to include her. He calls and asks you to come over, response is my wife is out and I am caring for my daughter - his choice, you visit with her or you don't visit. YOUR choice dad. Take it or leave it. End of subject.

We can be care-givers and provide what someone needs without being a doormat. As for guilt trips - no no no, a resounding NO! This requires a change on your part - do NOT accept any guilt from him. You do the necessary and if that doesn't satisfy him, so be it. It is what it is.

I would also work closely with your brother. You should both KNOW what days you each do something that dad NEEDS (stress is NEEDS not WANTS) and stick to it. Sure, emergencies come up, so you may have to swap days here and there, but in general it should work so long as you two co-ordinate your efforts.

Let him complain and whine all he wants. If he is truly sick, I am sure he would call the appropriate people for assistance if you and your brother are not "available."

You said: "As you've said he so used to getting people to what he wants." Well, the buck stops with you. The doctor has drawn his line in the sand by refusing to make a house visit, you need to start drawing your lines (ONLY ONE per issue and STICK TO IT!)  

Response for your sample of his crap statements, used one time only, then just IGNORE his comments:

"Why are you wasting money on that?" Because.

"Why are you going there on holidays again?" Because.

Best one ever (I was 46, wife 42 when we had our daughter) - "Why did you have another child? They cost money and you're both too old". He honestly thought we should listen to his advice on this. Can imagine my wifes face!!!!

Yes, I can imagine her face. After getting a divorce, my mother said something to the effect of too bad you had a second child... she was implying that taking care of one would be simpler than two, but it didn't make what she said any better!!!

So, stop being a doormat. Set YOUR rules for the games to be played and STICK to them!

Let the GAMES begin!!!!

Paul,

You just made me giggle! Thanks. Your dad is something else! Foreign food! Too funny!!!

You sound like great parents and I don’t blame you for feeling as you do about your dad. I get it. I also know like many others on this site how irritating our siblings can be!

I have to tell you that I second, third and fourth 100 percent what Barb said, “Take a two week break from your dad.” Let me add a message of my own along with her GREAT advice. He has a freezer with food where he can get food! He has another son who lives closer than you!

How dare he tell you about having a baby later! I had my last baby at 40! I have two girls. Fertility issues, but even without fertility issues, it is NONE of his business when you have YOUR kids.

Forgot you were in the UK. My maternal grandfather is from Birmingham, England. Somehow he landed in New Orleans. Bet your dad would eat our food! We are known for great music and fabulous food.

Take care, Paul. Vent anytime. We’re here for you. But next time we hear from you I want to hear what a great time you had with your family during your two weeks off. Do we have a deal? 😊. Hugs!!!

Paul, just one more thing...

You said that you were a consultant. Obviously, you’re a SMART guy that others want your advice. Think about this for a minute please. If someone came to you with your problem, how would you advise them? You know what you would tell them, don’t you? I do! You would say to them not to put up with that crap! So don’t take his crap! You deserve better, so do your wife and children.

JoAnn,

I know someone just like you described and she does the same thing as your classmate did. I overlooked it at first because I felt sorry for her. Guess what? She took advantage of me! I confronted her, no apologies, lied, blamed me. Oh, no. She does not get to do that to me. Had to tell her that she just blew the last relationship that she had maintained. Sad. She expected way too much from people too. Would she go out of her way for others? No way! So, we truly do have to put things in perspective.

Oh, Barb

You said it so well! Learned behavior!

My grandfather in law was married to an INSANE woman too! Poor man didn’t retire until his late 70’s because he told everyone that he couldn’t take being home with her. It was so sad watching it. He was a devout Catholic and would not divorce her. She made him miserable everyday.

If we have issues, we somehow need to retrain our brain, therapy, some need meds, or both. Your post are always on point.

I hope he will learn to treat your daughter with more appreciation and respect. She deserves it.

Pronker,

I call mobile phones an electronic leash! Haha. Can always say that your phone was dead, on charger, needs to be serviced, misplaced it, etc.

Love your post 😊

What a clever boy he is - those quotes "letting him down" and so forth are guaranteed to upset you, even if they don't actually result in a visit. He's got not much else in his day except to connive methods to get his way. Do you ever wish that mobile phones hadn't been invented? I do! Driving used to be a buffer zone between work and home and being on call 24/7 exhausts one.

As Life is today in 2019, whenever a sitch such as you describe erupts, I put on armor: Helmet of Knowledge, Shield of Protection, and Sword of Truth. What mental energy he must have to keep hectoring you. Let's hope Brother steps up to the plate more than previously.

Some people especially as they get older thrive on complaining. My FIL was like that, wonderful man but you had to be in the right frame of mind, have enough energy for a conversation. Now he wasn't being as controlling as it sounds like your dad is and he never complained about not getting visits, always appreciated them but never "expected" them. However I suspect that even if you moved in your dad would complain about something so it's pointless to try and satisfy him and might even be a negative since he gets pleasure out of having things to complain about. As others have pointed out while sometimes you can distract and guide your elderly LO's you can't change them fundamentally you can only change yourself. I wont be easy because it's against your instinct but try to view his complains differently, he's getting his pleasure out of them and maybe you can get yours too by simply finding the humor in it. I think setting up a routine is perfect, you go see him, do the shopping on Mon & Thurs (for instance) and check in with him a couple other days a week. As long as you feel he is safe and has what he needs, you aren't neglecting him, it's all good. Set up another avenue for checking on him in "emergencies". Maybe a neighbor, maybe your brother or maybe a combination but you have someone else (who lives closer) on call in the event he is "really sick" or "needs food now". You could even set up a delivery service option as well as another kind helper option for him to choose from the next time he needs you to "go now" and then if he really is in need he can make a choice as to how he gets the food or if he really is that sick he is going to let the closest person check on him and if valid you know you are going to get in the car. If he resists and will only have you then you can giggle to yourself knowing it was one of his ploys. I'm not saying he comes up with a plan and fakes these things, it may very well be that he convinces himself he is in dire need but having the immediate resolve to his needs without you showing up at his door may help train him and even if it doesn't it isn't putting anyone out majorly to check in next door and saves you for the real events.

Other helpful tools if you feel the need might be a public transport van/service if his area has that, use Face Time or Skype with him, an Amazon Echo Show or new Google equivalent giving you the ability to "drop in" and talk to each other face to face without having to actually go there physically, a security camera or two that give the ability to check in on him privately without having to interact. Just other ways to both touch base that feel closer than a phone call and ways to check up and see if there is a true emergency for your own piece of mind.

Feel comfortable holding firm and give yourself a break, giggle a little laugh with your wife about the methods dad tries to get you to leap to his service. Good luck, you are a good son.