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This question is more than one year old. It was posted in November of 2023. While it is surely interesting, it is quite old, so know that your responses will not likely go to the original OP who has not remained on this site that I know of.
Taxpayers? The mom if she has worked all her life has already paid enough taxes to just use want they have taken from her for many years including taxes she paid on the house over the years so why should the state also get her house then put her in a room with 2 to 3 people and take her whole social security check that could be 3000 plus for one room with 3 people in it and feed them crappy food and have subpar Caregivers because the caregivers aren’t paid enough while owners live their best lives! Ya’ll have got to be Kidding… Medicaid is already paid for by the working individual… it’s the FICA and/or social security tax they take out of every paycheck for years and some people die before they get to use it. So, that’s millions of dollars the government keeps so it will perfectly fine if a parent sells their home to their kid to keep it in the family! I don’t know what yall smoking but ain’t good for you! Then, the mom probably won’t even live long enough to even used the money she’s paid into social security and fica
What about care in a person's own home instead? Is that covered under Medicaid? Does the property need to be sold for this type of care? Also this discussion assumes that everyone entering long-term care will never recover and return home. What percentage of people in such care facilities do recover and return home afterward with a reasonable quality of life?
People in LTC usually don't recover from what is wrong with them. They have to be 24/7 care to be placed.
Medicaid in home the person remains in their home. When they pass, a lien is placed on the home. The house will then need tovbe sold for Market rate to covervthe lien. Same happens in LTC. The house is exempt until the person passes, then a lien is placed on the house. Lots more involved. So speak to a Medicaid caseworker.
Well, she would be expected to use the funds you pay her for her property to pay for the nursing home fees. When that money is gone, then you would need to apply for Medicaid. Medicaid will look back at 5 years of her finances to ensure she wasn’t hiding assets that should go for her care. If they feel you did not pay fair market value for the property that would be a problem.
My neighbor owns her home. She is single, never married but has a daughter she wants the home to go to..She is on Medicare. She gets to much monthly to get Medicaid. I was told Medicare pays 90 days hospital stay. What happens if she refuses anymore care and wants to live and die at home.,Now there shouldn’t be anything Medicaid can take if she never had it to begin with. Is that correct? Just trying to help her understand …
Yes, but it must be at appraised value because Medicare looks back to make sure people don't just give away property to become eligible. Look back is 5 years in most states. They also look back and money used - they watch for sums that may have been given away or transferred elsewhere. You will be asked to explain assets that were used, and for what. So if you buy the house (lower than county appraisal), be sure to have a real estate appraisal that documents repairs needed, etc, that account for the lower value. If there's a large transfer from her bank account to another acct or paid to a person, be ready to explain.
Yes but there's a five year look back . Don't do that . It's so much financial to have home services come to house , don't sign any papers to Medicaid keep parents home . I learned the hard Way.if parents have property savings ect. That's all locked in. And assessment $$$ base on amount of care she. Needs . Converse with Elder Law or attorney.
Please perhaps before assuming the OP or anyone else asking these type of questions is trying to get around Medicaid’s assets rules, pause to think about & give benefit of the doubt on if the property has issues, like is very modest or decades of delayed maintenance. I don’t think OP is being nefarious or greedy, she’s got a simple ? & casting about hoping for suggestions.
Capital gains, IRS rules, irrevoc vs revoc, attorneys etc doesn’t matter if house is low value or has issues, as just a waste of time, $ & energy.
OP lives in an unincorporated area in poorest State in the US. Not in a City, not in a Town, not even in a Village but unincorporated area with overall population of 2,400. There is 1 home for sale currently & it looks like a big double wide hunting camp on 17 acres. Closest area with census data is Bogue Chitto, MS. I’ve travel up from New Orleans through that part of MS on way up to Starkville / Columbus and it’s - well - desolate. Area overwhelmingly backwater tribal land (Choctaw) & their HQ & casinos are not nearby. What non tribal land left is scattered farm lands and forests.
Per capita income is $6,080, median income is $16,641. Not a typo, per capita income basically Six Thousand Dollars a year…
When ya hear “dirt poor”, it’s land like this it’s referring to. OP mom’s house may not be awful - for all we know it may be cute - but it’s in an area that is this level of poverty. Not area where one can find and do renovations on MCM homes with expansive porches suitable for episodic TV, like over in Laurel. Hard to do comparable’s and Fair Market Value, when there is no “market”. I think why MS estate recovery does the “if under 75K property value we do a hard pass on a recoup as the costs to deal with recovery not worth it” approach. Just sayin’.
Cali is the one state that limits the MA LTC lookback period to 2.5 yrs, a deviation from the 5 yr lookback of all other states.
If you've lived with and cared for your mom for a period exceeding 2 yrs, you qualify for having her transfer the home to you; an Elder Law atty could assist with all of this.
Otherwise, as previously stated, the fair market value applies and the sale proceeds will go to pay for her care until spent down and she qualifies for MA LTC. It's unavoidable and quite sad imo that one's parents work their entire lives to build equity only to have it all go for aged care.
I'm speaking as one who is now in provess of MA application for my Mom, fater the private pay used their entire estate for the NH care she's required. It's a complex process so pls don't make any missteps along the way.
I hope that you can find a way to keep your family home, but the state will get it's due, no matter what.
Sure-as long as she sells it to you at fair market value and the cash is in a bank account in her name so the sale proceeds can be used to pay for her care. Of course, she will have to pay capital gains taxes on the difference between what she paid for her home and current market value.
There are many legal pitfalls to protecting assets when planning for Medicaid. For example, if title to your mother's home is transferred to you improperly, the state can come after you for any funds paid for your mom's care even after she is dead. I suggest you consult with an elder law attorney. Elder law attorneys specialize in asset protection in the context of medicaid planning. They are well versed in the "lookback period." The lookback period is the time the state will lookback at transfers your mother made before applying for long term care financial assistance. Generally, it is 60 months with some caveats. Often, an eldercare attorney will draft a trust. All of your mom's assets would be placed in the trust. Elder law attorneys are well versed in asset protection so I suggest you start there.
Unless Mom has a house that has appreciated a huge amount since she bought it, she most likely wouldn't owe any capital gains taxes. A single person can exclude up to $250,000 of capital gains from the sale of a home. Also, according to the IRS: "In general, to qualify for the Section 121 exclusion, you must meet both the ownership test and the use test. You're eligible for the exclusion if you have owned and used your home as your main home for a period aggregating at least two years out of the five years prior to its date of sale. You can meet the ownership and use tests during different 2-year periods. However, you must meet both tests during the 5-year period ending on the date of the sale." As others have said, there should be no problem with you buying her house so long as it's at fair market value. The money from the sale is your mom's and would be spent down to pay for her care privately until her total assets are down to whatever limit your state has to be Medicaid eligible. Since most people don't have a large amount of ready cash, you'd most likely have to take out a mortgage to be able to afford the home at fair market value, but the $$ from the sale would be immediately available for your mom. The plus side of selling your mom's home now, whether to you or someone else, is that it would give your family the option to place your mom in a nice nursing home with a private room and you wouldn't have to wait for a Medicaid bed to open up. But you need to make sure the NH does take Medicaid, if and when she runs out of funds. If you really like her home, want to buy it, and can finance it that's fine. The "state" doesn't want the home, but if she goes on Medicaid while still owning the home a lien may be placed on it so Medicaid can recoup some of what it's paid for her care after she dies. While she's alive, someone would have to be paying for property taxes, insurance, etc. as all almost all of mom's income will be going to pay for her care in the NH with Medicaid picking up the balance.
There is a 5-year look back that Medicaid does in order to qualify for a Medicaid SNF. Speak to an elder law attorney who will advise you on this topic.
My mother‘s home is in a trust. Her attorney made her put it there when my father died, smart man. Once she dies, the three of us kids will get cuts of the sale of the house. And I fully intend to buy something and then put that in a trust for my daughter, so it doesn’t go to any nursing home. Not gonna happen. I worked hard all my life and I decide who gets my money, and it’s not gonna be the nursing home, it’s going to be my family. There’s no arguing me out of it, I don’t give a crap about the nursing home, if I’m in a nursing home, I’m gonna be dead in just a few years anyway, so really who cares. It’s ridiculous. Ops Mom sounds like she's prioritizing her family. I’m sorry if others don’t understand prioritizing one’s family, that’s a little odd to me, but if they want all their funds to go to some stranger's parking space paint and a new refrigerator for the Director's house, let them have at it.
A regular or REVOCABLE trust doesn't protect your mother's money or her home from Medicaid and Medicaid recovery. Only an IRREVOCABLE Trust does that. My brother had a Trust also in which all his assets were placed other than a few POD accounts. That Trust paid for his ALF and for all his bills, and stood to pay all bills of his estate on his death. Only an IRREVOCABLE Trust leaves the money to the children, and that better be done at least 5 years prior to anyone needing to apply for Medicaid. As I said, I think it is horrible to have a parent on Medicaid, when they have assets and funds of their own saved for their care. To have the taxpayers pay costs while the children inherit money is to my mind quite shameful. But that's just my opinion.
It depends on why you want the house. If it’s to ‘cheat’ the tax payer into meeting the cost of M’s care, then the answers here are all right – it’s not fair on the tax payer.
However if you really want the house because you love it and want to live there yourself, it’s a different matter. You will have to pay a fair price, (or Medicaid will challenge it as part-gift), but it’s not unfair to price it as-is. You don’t need to do all the work that an owner would normally do to get the highest price. Read the information here, and get more than one valuation. Make it clear that it’s as-is, and make sure that you get a justification for the valuation being lower than other local properties that have been fully prepared for sale.
I agree with you. The OP also needs to be aware that Medicaid has a 5-year look back period and if her mother sells her house now she might not qualify for Medicaid as she might be above the Medicaid threshold of her state.
Baaaahaaahaaaa, good for you and your mother for taking care of each other. Wow....just wow. What my mother finally did was put the house in a trust. The best thing for you to do would be to talk to an estate attorney, there’s at least a five-year look back for Medicaid. People do this all day long, don’t worry about it.
It really irks me when questions like this come up. Why do you think that taxpayers should pay for the care of your mother? We have our own parents to care for. I think you already know the answer to this but you were just throwing it out there to see if anyone would sympathize with you.
I absolutely agree with you. Its not the tax payers responsibility to make you rich. Moms money is mot yours, its for her care. Hope the State comes after your greed if youbdobsell and keep the money.
I 100% agree with this! My dad also worked his butt off to afford the best possible care for my mother. My mom is only 82 with at least 8 plus years left I’m betting. She will definitely reach the million dollar mark, much to my brother's chagrin.
State laws vary but here there is a 5 year look back period assets transferring. Get a elder lawyer because there is also laws allowing family member who lives in the home to remain, similar to a spouse.
Even for ‘those with expansive wealth’, once their ‘expansive assets’ are depleted to ‘private - pay’ a nursing home, ‘wealthy’ individuals are ‘just as subject to Medicaid laws to qualify for Medicaid’ as are those ‘without adequate wealth thus qualifying for Medicaid -provided nursing home payment’.
Ultimately it is ‘only a matter of time’, for a very wealthy nursing home resident ‘who lives long enough to outlive their ability to private-pay for a nursing home’, to ‘ALSO qualify for Medicaid-provided nursing home payment the same as an one who is indigent’.
So whether one chooses to protect assets to have Medicaid-provided nursing home payment ‘sooner’ by way of Medicaid not being able to ;touch; one’s assets because Medicaid can’t see them’ in an irrevocable trust; or to ‘not to protect assets, watch them deplete and then ‘still need Medicaid’, the Medicaid law providing needed NH care is the same: without means to pay, nursing homes will be paid by Medicaid and seek payment later from existing assets.
The ‘difference’ is: for ‘those who have decided to seek and pay for services of a certified elder law lawyer to write such a trust’, their wealth can be ‘protected with an asset -protecting irrevocable trust’ by which all monetary and property assets placed into that trust are ‘untouchable by Medicaid’. Either way, ‘Unprotected’ or ‘protected’, once monies run out to private-pay a NH, Medicaid kicks in for payment from ‘one’s unprotected assets and properties’. Whether one chooses to pay a certified elder law lawyer to ‘correctly write an asset-protecting trust’ or ‘pay out to a nursing home to the point of exhausting of one’s private-pay ability’ is a matter of ’choice’ and not necessarily a matter of ‘ethics’.
AND the difference is that the elder who is dumb enough to gift their kids via an irrevocable Trust has taken their own money and handed it to those GREEDY kids who will be just thrilled to see their elders go on Medicaid and get the often substandard care that the government funds supply rather than a comfortable ALF their own money would have afforded them. I pit these parents, and I have little to no use for their progeny.
An elder attorney may save peace of mind and costly mistakes. My elder lawattorney was also able to help complete a complex real estate transaction. All you need to do is ask at the appointment
Mom can sell her home, yes, but the sale will result in assets and those assets will mean that mom won't get Medicaid.
She can't sell that home for below market value (say to friends/family) or it will be considered "gifting" and it will disqualify her for medicaid. And any sale to any family member will be looked at very very carefully, meaning that they will want to see that the assets from the sale are in Mom's name, and that market value was paid for the home.
Best thing Mom can do, if her home is her only asset, is to keep it, and apply for medicaid. They will do recovery when mom passes, which is as it should be. These governmental programs are to help the indigent, not to protect assets to be inherited by the children. Whatever your assets are they stand to provide for you in age.
Asset protection does have some tricks to apply and if mom and family are interested in hearing about them and the options and limitations legally involved it's time to see an elder law attorney. Best out to you.
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State should not step in until her own funds are expired.
Medicaid in home the person remains in their home. When they pass, a lien is placed on the home. The house will then need tovbe sold for Market rate to covervthe lien. Same happens in LTC. The house is exempt until the person passes, then a lien is placed on the house. Lots more involved. So speak to a Medicaid caseworker.
They also look back and money used - they watch for sums that may have been given away or transferred elsewhere. You will be asked to explain assets that were used, and for what. So if you buy the house (lower than county appraisal), be sure to have a real estate appraisal that documents repairs needed, etc, that account for the lower value. If there's a large transfer from her bank account to another acct or paid to a person, be ready to explain.
Capital gains, IRS rules, irrevoc vs revoc, attorneys etc doesn’t matter if house is low value or has issues, as just a waste of time, $ & energy.
OP lives in an unincorporated area in poorest State in the US. Not in a City, not in a Town, not even in a Village but unincorporated area with overall population of 2,400. There is 1 home for sale currently & it looks like a big double wide hunting camp on 17 acres. Closest area with census data is Bogue Chitto, MS. I’ve travel up from New Orleans through that part of MS on way up to Starkville / Columbus and it’s - well - desolate. Area overwhelmingly backwater tribal land (Choctaw) & their HQ & casinos are not nearby. What non tribal land left is scattered farm lands and forests.
Per capita income is $6,080, median income is $16,641.
Not a typo, per capita income basically Six Thousand Dollars a year…
When ya hear “dirt poor”, it’s land like this it’s referring to. OP mom’s house may not be awful - for all we know it may be cute - but it’s in an area that is this level of poverty. Not area where one can find and do renovations on MCM homes with expansive porches suitable for episodic TV, like over in Laurel. Hard to do comparable’s and Fair Market Value, when there is no “market”. I think why MS estate recovery does the “if under 75K property value we do a hard pass on a recoup as the costs to deal with recovery not worth it” approach. Just sayin’.
Cali is the one state that limits the MA LTC lookback period to 2.5 yrs, a deviation from the 5 yr lookback of all other states.
If you've lived with and cared for your mom for a period exceeding 2 yrs, you qualify for having her transfer the home to you; an Elder Law atty could assist with all of this.
Otherwise, as previously stated, the fair market value applies and the sale proceeds will go to pay for her care until spent down and she qualifies for MA LTC. It's unavoidable and quite sad imo that one's parents work their entire lives to build equity only to have it all go for aged care.
I'm speaking as one who is now in provess of MA application for my Mom, fater the private pay used their entire estate for the NH care she's required. It's a complex process so pls don't make any missteps along the way.
I hope that you can find a way to keep your family home, but the state will get it's due, no matter what.
There are many legal pitfalls to protecting assets when planning for Medicaid. For example, if title to your mother's home is transferred to you improperly, the state can come after you for any funds paid for your mom's care even after she is dead. I suggest you consult with an elder law attorney. Elder law attorneys specialize in asset protection in the context of medicaid planning. They are well versed in the "lookback period." The lookback period is the time the state will lookback at transfers your mother made before applying for long term care financial assistance. Generally, it is 60 months with some caveats. Often, an eldercare attorney will draft a trust. All of your mom's assets would be placed in the trust. Elder law attorneys are well versed in asset protection so I suggest you start there.
Only an IRREVOCABLE Trust leaves the money to the children, and that better be done at least 5 years prior to anyone needing to apply for Medicaid.
As I said, I think it is horrible to have a parent on Medicaid, when they have assets and funds of their own saved for their care. To have the taxpayers pay costs while the children inherit money is to my mind quite shameful. But that's just my opinion.
However if you really want the house because you love it and want to live there yourself, it’s a different matter. You will have to pay a fair price, (or Medicaid will challenge it as part-gift), but it’s not unfair to price it as-is. You don’t need to do all the work that an owner would normally do to get the highest price. Read the information here, and get more than one valuation. Make it clear that it’s as-is, and make sure that you get a justification for the valuation being lower than other local properties that have been fully prepared for sale.
Mom’s assets are for her care, end of discussion.
If the house is in her name, the work of angling to keep it from providing for her welfare just doesn’t seem worth it to me.
I’ve never regretted my decision for one minute.
Ultimately it is ‘only a matter of time’, for a very wealthy nursing home resident ‘who lives long enough to outlive their ability to private-pay for a nursing home’, to ‘ALSO qualify for Medicaid-provided nursing home payment the same as an one who is indigent’.
So whether one chooses to protect assets to have Medicaid-provided nursing home payment ‘sooner’ by way of Medicaid not being able to ;touch; one’s assets because Medicaid can’t see them’ in an irrevocable trust; or to ‘not to protect assets, watch them deplete and then ‘still need Medicaid’, the Medicaid law providing needed NH care is the same: without means to pay, nursing homes will be paid by Medicaid and seek payment later from existing assets.
The ‘difference’ is: for ‘those who have decided to seek and pay for services of a certified elder law lawyer to write such a trust’, their wealth can be ‘protected with an asset -protecting irrevocable trust’ by which all monetary and property assets placed into that trust are ‘untouchable by Medicaid’. Either way, ‘Unprotected’ or ‘protected’, once monies run out to private-pay a NH, Medicaid kicks in for payment from ‘one’s unprotected assets and properties’. Whether one chooses to pay a certified elder law lawyer to ‘correctly write an asset-protecting trust’ or ‘pay out to a nursing home to the point of exhausting of one’s private-pay ability’ is a matter of ’choice’ and not necessarily a matter of ‘ethics’.
If the answer for this question was simple, everyone would have done it. Medicaid rules are very confusing and complicated. It’s not a DIY plan.
You may have to pay market value for it though.
She can't sell that home for below market value (say to friends/family) or it will be considered "gifting" and it will disqualify her for medicaid. And any sale to any family member will be looked at very very carefully, meaning that they will want to see that the assets from the sale are in Mom's name, and that market value was paid for the home.
Best thing Mom can do, if her home is her only asset, is to keep it, and apply for medicaid. They will do recovery when mom passes, which is as it should be. These governmental programs are to help the indigent, not to protect assets to be inherited by the children. Whatever your assets are they stand to provide for you in age.
Asset protection does have some tricks to apply and if mom and family are interested in hearing about them and the options and limitations legally involved it's time to see an elder law attorney. Best out to you.