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Anyone asking the question "How much money is in my bank account", is already setting valid cause to suspect capacity. I mean even if they can't use a computer or smartphone, every bank has a phone number you can call and find out your balance. That's too much for my mom but she knows how to check the balance at an ATM. But she LOVES to pretend like she doesn't. And losing cash omg. She'll casually say "Ok off to the bank to withdraw all my money, bye!"
Well, if you ask the non POA sibling of the person I care for, when I did finances, I was a very controlling women. Oh the tears of I have no money, she takes it all.
The real story was there was no money, $467 was a fail to pay taxes garnishment I had to fix, co-pays, mortgage payments, house and car ins, etc, etc. They were lucky if they got 200 a month to cover basic necessities. So, they had a spreadsheet, signed all checks but they never knew anything if you believe them. Funny really. But POS, other child believed the drama and it caused many problems. I owed him no explanations as POA of 1 spouse and your brother owes you no explaination.
So, is there a reason your mom hasnt called the bank for paper statements with checks attached? It costs about $5 a month or done online access? Thats on her, not brother.
Burntcaregiver, you are not totally correct, jeez, why does JoAnn always get the slack? Some states forbid a POA from being paid, some allow it and some allow it if it is specifically spelled out in the POA documents.
The POA brother certainly does have every right to get paid for his services. If not in by a monthly fee, then when mom's estate gets settled. When I had my father's POA, I checked with the probate court in my city to make sure I could charge for my services as POA. Even when he went in the nursing home, I would not relinquish my POA or the fee I collected for it. The nursing home bill was paid every month on time. I made sure my father's affairs were managed and took care of whatever he personally needed. The nursing home did not provide things like a tv, toiletries, or anything like that for the residents. The nursing home petitioned the probate court twice to get conservatorship over my father because they didn't like how I did things. They lost both times. I didn't have a lawyer with me either time. I didn't need one because I was operating perfectly within the law and what is allowed. Any person who has a POA or conservatorship for another person should always visit the probate court in their town and city where they can get in writing what their duties are and their legal rights to compensation.
Is your mother suffering from Dementia? If not, she is free to choose another POA. As POA for my brother I asked him about every step I was making for him. I sent him a full monthly accounting each and every month of all of his accounts, of funds coming in and of funds paid out in bills. I discussed with him all changes being made. He has appointed me as his POA when he got a diagnosis of probable early Lewy's Dementia. However he remained competent in his own affairs until his death. A POA is appointed by someone to act as DIRECTED by the appointer. In my brother's case he asked for his own account and asked for the amount of money he wanted in his personal account and this was done at once. The POA can deny a person ONLY when that person is too demented to act in his or her own behalf, and then must act as a fiduciary, in the best interest of the person he is representing, and must keep meticulous records and receipts that will stand in court to prove he acted as a responsible fiduciary. If your brother is not doing his duties as they should be done you should attend an elder law attorney with your mother and find out how to proceed. You can also contact APS if you suspect fraud.
It is possible you are not getting the real story if it is coming only from your mom. My mom told everyone she could she had no money left, I had taken it all and she had nothing even though week after week I would show her her bank statements and balances. She had no checkbook - she did, she kept hiding it. Then she would tell people pitifully she just wanted a few dollars for herself to have in cash if she wanted to buy something... forgetting she had several hundred in her hiding place. Then she wanted to get just a little cash so she could have just a tiny bit of money for herself and tried to cash out a $10,000.00 CD in cash with no understanding of how much money that was.
Talk to your brother. Repeat what she is telling you.
@Goddatter ahh well, nice to hear I'm not the only one to experience this. My mother was a master manipulator when mind was fully intact. Now, she's just, still pretty good at it lol!
Exact same scenario you described, slightly different approach. Instead telling everyone she has no money, she pretends like she doesn't understand money. She bangs on my door crying asking me "How do i get my money? Should I go to the bank?" I tell her that paper money is a bad idea. Just cleaning up in her place I have found wads of cash that I gave back to her. (Or she planted on purpose to be a damsel in distress). She acts like she doesn't understand what a debit card is and how to use it. What she ACTUALLY forgets is that CAN and MUST access her online banking regularly to make sure she's not doing something stupid. And I'll see: $17 purchase at corner store this morning, via debit card, etc. Later that day : "How do i get my money?" me: "Skip the money, and get the stuff mom. Like you did today at 9:30 am at the corner store. Nice try" She always smirks and calls me an iddiot when I call her out It can be a problem sometimes when she involves -other- people. i even said the other day "You know what, I think this whole dementia thing is a complete ruse, and you're just playing everyone like a fiddle!" SHe exploded laughing and said "You got me!"
Does your mom has some kind of dementia and this is why the POA is active and your brother is managing her affairs? If she doesn't and is still competent the POA isn't even active. A POA goes into effect when a person becomes incapacitated or unable to manage their own decisions and financial affairs. If mom is mentally capable she can go to whatever lawyer did the POA for her and have it changed. Your brother doesn't sound like a very nice person but he may not be doing anything legally wrong. Are your mother's bills being paid on time and in full? Does your brother make sure your mom has decent groceries, personal care items like soap, shampoo, body lotion, etc...? Does he make sure the help gets paid if she has homecare coming in? Your brother may have a good reason for not telling mom what the balance is in her bank account. It's hard enough for many mentally competent seniors to accept the price of everything today. One with dementia will be impossible. This may be why he doesn't tell your mom her balance. It may look like a fortune to her when really it's barely enough for her to get by in her old age. However there is no excuse to not let her have a little bit of money. Would the odd 20 dollars here and there bankrupt her? I'd have a real problem with that. Your best bet would be to just come right out and ask him. If you have siblings tell them to back you up. Demand that he show the lot of you proof of what's in her account and proof of what the monthly expenses are. You of course know that as the POA who takes care of mom's business, your brother also has a legal right to charge a monthly fee for doing so. Make him explain himself. If he refuses then he's probably pulling something shady and you should visit the lawyer who did your mom's POA and talk with them about it.
If brother's POA is in effect he doesn't have to show his siblings anything. He responsibility is to his mother. He does not have a right to charge a monthly fee if that is not in the POA. If I had charged a monthly fee, it really would have dwindled what my Mom had in her accts.
If he has durable POA it active upon signing it. I have a Bil is durable poa won’t share with siblings any financials. Controlling… and it’s only gotten worse with time.
if your mother is competent talk to her about changing it. By our experiences, I would get it done
Any person with a POA or conservatorship that will not be transparent with their own siblings about what the parents have is because they're greedy and trying to get away with something. Dawhop should take mom to visit the lawyer who did the POA document for her and tell them what's going on. The lawyer may be able to help or advise them. When I had POA for my father it was a nightmare. A mangled mess of bills, a dispute over property with his recent girlfriend, you name it. I was always transparent and honest with my siblings about everything. They knew what he had, what the nursing home was costing and how much I was collecting to handle all of it. No one had a problem with it. Your BIL is trying to pull something shady by not being transparent himself.
You're not giving us much information here, but just because your brother is moms POA, doesn't necessarily mean that he can activate that power yet. A lot of POA's are only in effect when and if the person for whom it is for, is deemed mentally incompetent. Does mom have any mental decline that she's been diagnosed with yet? If not, I would ask to see a copy of the POA, as mom should have her copy, and take it from there. You may have to get a lawyer involved, as a POA is supposed to look out for the one they are POA for, and do what is in their best interests. Sounds to be like your brother is up to no good, as your mom should be able to know how much money she has, and have some money on hand to do with whatever she wants. Best wishes in getting this all figured out.
He is POA FOR mom, not OVER mom, it's still her money. Does your mom have any cognitive impairment? If she is still competent then she has the ability to change her POA but there must be a reason she chose your brother in the first place. Pocket money is one of the things some people with dementia obsess about even though they may have no where to spend that money and may be prone to losing it.
You're right about cash causing problems with the accusations of theft and robbery because a person loses it and can't remember that they lost it. That's a good point.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
The real story was there was no money, $467 was a fail to pay taxes garnishment I had to fix, co-pays, mortgage payments, house and car ins, etc, etc. They were lucky if they got 200 a month to cover basic necessities. So, they had a spreadsheet, signed all checks but they never knew anything if you believe them. Funny really. But POS, other child believed the drama and it caused many problems. I owed him no explanations as POA of 1 spouse and your brother owes you no explaination.
So, is there a reason your mom hasnt called the bank for paper statements with checks attached? It costs about $5 a month or done online access? Thats on her, not brother.
Burntcaregiver, you are not totally correct, jeez, why does JoAnn always get the slack? Some states forbid a POA from being paid, some allow it and some allow it if it is specifically spelled out in the POA documents.
The POA brother certainly does have every right to get paid for his services. If not in by a monthly fee, then when mom's estate gets settled.
When I had my father's POA, I checked with the probate court in my city to make sure I could charge for my services as POA. Even when he went in the nursing home, I would not relinquish my POA or the fee I collected for it. The nursing home bill was paid every month on time. I made sure my father's affairs were managed and took care of whatever he personally needed. The nursing home did not provide things like a tv, toiletries, or anything like that for the residents.
The nursing home petitioned the probate court twice to get conservatorship over my father because they didn't like how I did things. They lost both times. I didn't have a lawyer with me either time. I didn't need one because I was operating perfectly within the law and what is allowed.
Any person who has a POA or conservatorship for another person should always visit the probate court in their town and city where they can get in writing what their duties are and their legal rights to compensation.
A POA is appointed by someone to act as DIRECTED by the appointer. In my brother's case he asked for his own account and asked for the amount of money he wanted in his personal account and this was done at once.
The POA can deny a person ONLY when that person is too demented to act in his or her own behalf, and then must act as a fiduciary, in the best interest of the person he is representing, and must keep meticulous records and receipts that will stand in court to prove he acted as a responsible fiduciary.
If your brother is not doing his duties as they should be done you should attend an elder law attorney with your mother and find out how to proceed. You can also contact APS if you suspect fraud.
Talk to your brother. Repeat what she is telling you.
Exact same scenario you described, slightly different approach. Instead telling everyone she has no money, she pretends like she doesn't understand money. She bangs on my door crying asking me "How do i get my money? Should I go to the bank?" I tell her that paper money is a bad idea. Just cleaning up in her place I have found wads of cash that I gave back to her. (Or she planted on purpose to be a damsel in distress). She acts like she doesn't understand what a debit card is and how to use it. What she ACTUALLY forgets is that CAN and MUST access her online banking regularly to make sure she's not doing something stupid. And I'll see: $17 purchase at corner store this morning, via debit card, etc.
Later that day : "How do i get my money?"
me: "Skip the money, and get the stuff mom. Like you did today at 9:30 am at the corner store. Nice try"
She always smirks and calls me an iddiot when I call her out
It can be a problem sometimes when she involves -other- people.
i even said the other day "You know what, I think this whole dementia thing is a complete ruse, and you're just playing everyone like a fiddle!"
SHe exploded laughing and said "You got me!"
Your brother doesn't sound like a very nice person but he may not be doing anything legally wrong.
Are your mother's bills being paid on time and in full? Does your brother make sure your mom has decent groceries, personal care items like soap, shampoo, body lotion, etc...? Does he make sure the help gets paid if she has homecare coming in?
Your brother may have a good reason for not telling mom what the balance is in her bank account. It's hard enough for many mentally competent seniors to accept the price of everything today. One with dementia will be impossible. This may be why he doesn't tell your mom her balance. It may look like a fortune to her when really it's barely enough for her to get by in her old age.
However there is no excuse to not let her have a little bit of money. Would the odd 20 dollars here and there bankrupt her? I'd have a real problem with that.
Your best bet would be to just come right out and ask him. If you have siblings tell them to back you up. Demand that he show the lot of you proof of what's in her account and proof of what the monthly expenses are. You of course know that as the POA who takes care of mom's business, your brother also has a legal right to charge a monthly fee for doing so. Make him explain himself.
If he refuses then he's probably pulling something shady and you should visit the lawyer who did your mom's POA and talk with them about it.
Bil is durable poa won’t share with siblings any financials. Controlling… and it’s only gotten worse with time.
if your mother is competent talk to her about changing it. By our experiences, I would get it done
Any person with a POA or conservatorship that will not be transparent with their own siblings about what the parents have is because they're greedy and trying to get away with something.
Dawhop should take mom to visit the lawyer who did the POA document for her and tell them what's going on. The lawyer may be able to help or advise them.
When I had POA for my father it was a nightmare. A mangled mess of bills, a dispute over property with his recent girlfriend, you name it.
I was always transparent and honest with my siblings about everything. They knew what he had, what the nursing home was costing and how much I was collecting to handle all of it. No one had a problem with it.
Your BIL is trying to pull something shady by not being transparent himself.
Does she need to have cash or will it fuel situations in which she loses it and makes accusations?
Who is she complaining to?
Does mom have dementia?
More info will get you better advice.
You're right about cash causing problems with the accusations of theft and robbery because a person loses it and can't remember that they lost it. That's a good point.